19 Comment(s)

1. Kristina | Mar 9, 2008 | Reply

   Pssst… I tagged you — linky love

   There’s always a standard that must be upheld when it comes to education (which is of course necessary), and while in many public schools you’ll notice many kids just getting pushed through whether or not they’re at least grade level, if a homeschooled kid doesn’t score up to par, goodbye homeschooling… so it definitely makes sense that kids who are and continue to be homeschooled are the ones who can a)handle it and b)have competent parents who can handle it.

2. angela | Mar 9, 2008 | Reply

   I think if a child is failing then they should not get pushed through to the next level.

   There has to be accountability for both sides no matter where the child goes to school.

   That’s how I see it.

   BTW, I tried to add your blog to my newsreader and I can’t for the life of me figure out how to get it to take.

   Can you send me the URL for your feed?

   I would imagine if I’m having this much trouble adding it then you are probably missing out on tons of traffic from peeps that are having a hard time adding it to their readers too.

   Know what I mean Vern?

3. Tracy | Mar 9, 2008 | Reply

   As a former homeschooling mom, I think the concerns that many homeschooling parents would have with a forced standardized test for their children is two fold.

   1. Standardized tests are based on what educators have decided are the skills/knowledge/facts that kids need to learn in a certain grade level.
   For example, here in Missouri, Missouri history is taught in the third grade. But I wasn’t teaching history to my children in the same order that the state of Missouri dictated for it’s public school system.
   So if my son, for example, had taken the MAP standardized test in his homeschool 3rd grade, he would have failed the section on Missouri history.
   On the other hand, all the public school 3rd graders would have failed a test if I’d given them one. My kids didn’t know all about Missouri history yet, because I hadn’t taught it yet.
   I felt that it was important to start from a more firm foundation. So I started with the Revolutionary War and everything that had led up to it, and worked from there. My kids could tell you all about the Proclamation of 1763, the Intolerable Acts, the Sons of Liberty, the Continental Congress, the Minutemen, the battles at Lexington and Concord, Bunker Hill, etc.
   They could tell you all about the Declaration of Independence and recite it by heart, from “We hold these truths to be self-evident” to “as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.”
   They could also tell you all fifty states IN THE ORDER that they became states admitted into the union. I started just doing the colonies, and their statehood, but the kids wanted to learn the order of all fifty, so we went with that.
   We then skipped a few years and went from the Declaration to the Constitution. They can tell you all about the Constitutional Convention, the major players, its ratification in the states, the framework of the branches of government, the amendments and the Bill of Rights- and they all have the preamble memorized.
   I simply wanted them to learn about the foundation of our country as a whole, before learning about their specific state of Missouri. But as you can see, they weren’t “lacking” in their education just because they hadn’t learned more deatiled information about “Missouri” YET.

   2. The second concern would come as a RESULT of the first. When kids in public school don’t do well on standardized tests, it does what you said– “points out strengths and weaknesses”, thereby giving the school and the district a goal to work toward (in acheiving the standard that the STATE has set for it’s school systems). If scores stay low, without marked improvement, they can lose accreditation.
   But I can promise you, if HOMESCHOOL kids were to not do well then the state would probably say “you evidently aren’t teaching them well enough, so we’re going to make you put them into public school”
   So I think those 2 things are what would be a problem for homeschooling parents, regarding standardized tests. Those tests ASSUME and EXPECT that all kids of the same age and grade are learning the same skills/knowledge/facts in the same order because the state has set a certain standard, and the schools TEACH to that standard and choose curriculum that fits.
   But ORDER isn’t necessary in all areas of study. Math– okay, duh. You have to learn to add and subtract before you can do long division. But not all subjects work that way.

4. angela | Mar 9, 2008 | Reply

   Well, perhaps it would be better to know which tests are going to be applied and when so that all teachers can adjust their curriculum accordingly. Would there be a problem with that?

5. Tracy | Mar 9, 2008 | Reply

   For homeschooling parents, yes, it would still be a problem because it would require that parents adjust the curriculum the’yve chosen and/or designed to fit the criterion that the STATE has set. So for example, I would not have been able to start my kids off with the Revolutionary War, the way I felt was best. I would have had to start with Missouri history.
   I remember when we did a big unit study on the ocean for science. My son was 9 and my girls were 7 and 5. We studied oceanography in depth, (adjusting material/assigments for their ages and abilities).
   They learned about the euphotic, disphotic and aphotic zones, and the different life forms that live in the different zones– we even included the intertidal zone so that when we went to the beach that summer for vacation, they could dig around in the sand and see what they’d learned. We studied tides, waves, famous undersea explorers- Cousteau, Ballard, and Earle.
   Our other big science units that year were rainforests, deserts, grasslands and a smaller one on tundras.
   Now- I don’t know what “Missouri” would say about what the average 7 or 9 year old should know about science in their individual grades. Maybe they studied space, energy, insects– who knows?
   The point is that a standardized test would have meant that I would have had to find out what Missouri’s standards were, and I would have had to teach THAT instead of what I taught them.
   But I was teaching them those specific areas of science for a REASON. We knew we were going on vacation for a family reunion at the ocean the coming summer. My children had never BEEN to the ocean- it was the PERFECT time to study it. They were able to study it and then go SEE it and experience it for themselves. And they appreciated it much more than the average kid there BECAUSE they’d studied it.
   When I designed our course of study for that year, knowing that were going to ocean and that I wanted to cover that, I decided for that year’s science themes, we’d just cover other ecosystems and biomes. That way, they’d be fresh in their minds and they could contrast/compare between all the types. And since we live in Missouri, we studied grasslands– something else they could actually see and experience.
   I had a REASON for choosing the themes of ecosystems and biomes as our course of study that year. A standardized test might have required me to teach space or insects or ______ (insert your choice of science fields here) INSTEAD of what we did.
   Knowing ahead of time what was expected by the STATE for my kids to know, and WHEN to know it, would only solve the problem of standardized tests if I wanted to CHANGE my curriculum to FIT their mold.
   But for many (if not MOST) homeschoolers, THAT’s one of the main reasons they homeschool.
   They don’t like the way the schools do it. Or they don’t like the curriculum. Or they don’t like the methodology. Do you see what I mean?
   For many, it would defeat one of the main purposes of homeschooling.

6. angela | Mar 9, 2008 | Reply

   Would it be possible for homeschoolers to adapt to meeting the state requirements first and then go above and beyond if they so choose? Is it possible? Or maybe the standardized tests that the state requires could be done so long as each child is ready to take it in order to go above and beyond school outside of the home? What do you think?

7. Tracy | Mar 9, 2008 | Reply

   For some, I suppose meeting state requirements first and then going beyond might work.
   What I gave above was speaking specifically to standardized tests. But I think the main issue would be state involvement, period. The basic idea for many homeschoolers is “I know what’s best to teach to my kids. I don’t want a system that I fundamentally disagree with telling me what I have to teach my kids, and when.”
   There’s also the concern about the slippery slope. That once you let government bodies in with the slightest amount of control, their eventually going to want more. So if we let the state tell us what we have to teach, then they might decide that since we aren’t meeting their requirements, they’ll also tell us what curriculum we have to use. And the Dept. of Education has PROVEN that that’s what they’ll do, over and over and over again.
   Now they even dictate what can be served at lunch!!
   Here’s just a slight example.
   I have an acquaintance who was homeschooling her kids THROUGH the school district. In other words, she was homeschooling them, but she had a credentialed teacher who oversaw their homeschool program, gave the lesson plans, etc. The mother altered some of the plans though, and also altered some of the assignments to adapt them to her daughter’s needs and abilities, but they kept up with the program, completed the lessons, the assignments, etc.
   When it came time to turn in the work for that grading period, it was all rejected. The girl didn’t get ANY credit for the work because the mother hadn’t STRICTLY followed the plans and assignments.

8. Gayla McCord | Mar 10, 2008 | Reply

   There are just some things that should be left to the professionals and a childs education is one of them.

   I think it should be a requirement that a teachers license be required for anyone opting to home school their children.

   Education is too important to have to chime in later on with an “Oops I didn’t know that…”

   Perhaps it would be worth those wanting to home school to all pitch in, hire a real certified teacher to teach a small group (like the old 1 room classroom days) and have peace of mind that your child is getting a proper education.

   I know I can’t do 5th grade math on my best day - I’d never want to risk messing my kid up because I wanted to stand against public schools and their rules.

9. Tracy | Mar 10, 2008 | Reply

   But just because YOU can’t do 5th grade math on your best day, doesn’t mean that other people can’t. Your opinion ASSUMES that OTHER parents are just like you, and that they don’t know as much as a teacher just because they aren’t “credentialed”.
   If someone wasn’t a good student, didn’t do well in school, had a hard time, received low grades, then yes, it may not be a good idea for that person to try and homeschool their kids.
   I’m not a certified teacher and never earned a degree, but when I DID put my kids into public school after having homsechooled them for several years, they were tested by the district to see “where they were” since they’d never been in a public school and had no “records” other than work I had kept. My son was suppose to be going into the fifth grade, but tested at in the 9th grade for volcabulary and reading comprehension, and 8th grade in science, math and social studies.
   My daughter was supposed to be going into the 3rd grade, but tested at 6th grade in all areas except for math, which was 5th.
   Their principal actually suggested that I write a book about how I was able to successfully homeschool my children and transition them to the public school environment.
   Tell me I “messed up” my kids and didn’t give them a “proper” education… my kids were doing better than the kids at their school. They’ve been in the public school system for several years now, and are ALL the top student in each of their respective classes.

   Several studies have shown that most homeschooled children test equal to or ABOVE most public schooled children in ACT and SAT scores. How is that “messing up” your kid?

10. angela | Mar 11, 2008 | Reply

    Tracy, you did an awesome job homeschooling your kids. I can tell just from what you’ve written in your responses. I have a feeling that you wouldn’t have a problem with your children being tested in order to see where they fit into the public school system. I guess I don’t understand why other homeschooling moms (not you obviously) have a problem with their children being made to take and pass certain tests. It seems to me that if their child is going to outscore the kids in public schools that there wouldn’t be an issue with it at all.

    Some moms out there are using the excuse that they don’t want government dictating to them.. to me.. that’s just an excuse. Why wouldn’t they want to show the government just how well homeschooling works if that is the route that they are wanting to go?

11. Tracy | Mar 11, 2008 | Reply

    They don’t want their children made to take tests because of what I mentioned earlier– if parents aren’t following the standard school model in their curriculum,and are teaching things in a different order then their kids may fail those tests. (Even though my kids scored high on their assessment tests, it wasn’t the standardized tests that the kids take at school. Even though my kids scored grade levels ABOVE their peers, they may very well have FAILED parts of a standardized test that’s based on what the state says a specific grade level is supposed to have learned in that year. ie– Missouri history vs. American history or Solar system vs. Oceans, etc)
    And it isn’t the fear that their child would fail the tests that concerns them, it’s that if they DID, the state or district would then FORCE them to go to public school or even CHARGE the parents with a crime. Sometimes, school districts don’t even CARE how well the kids are doing, they’re just so “anti-homeschoo” that they’ll prosecute with the notion that the parents are “depriving” their children. (Believe me, it’s happened before. It’s happening NOW in California.) http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=57679
    Then, there are also parents who KNOW their kids really ARE behind and that’s WHY they are homeschooling their kids. Maybe they have somekind of learning disability or something. There’s a huge concern about the district/state coming in and FORCING them to put their kids in school.
    Think of it this way– how many hundreds, thousands, even tens of thousands of children in public school are “behind”? Is there a
    “punishment” to the parents? Are they charged with crimes? No. Is the SCHOOL charged with crimes? Of course not. The SCHOOL may lose funding, they may lose accreditation, but the state doesn’t come in and PULL THE KIDS OUT OF THE SCHOOL, right? They keep letting the district “educate” the kids, even though so many of them are failing.
    The Kansas City school district lost it’s accreditation several years ago. They’ve been through SEVERAL administrators-a different one almost every year. But those kids are STILL underperforming– half of them are failing. How come they haven’t yanked all those kids out of the schools? Why aren’t they just shutting the whole thing down and shipping those kids out to other districts? But that’s EXACTLY what they want to do with homeschooled kids. If the kids don’t meet the expectations of the school district, then they want to FORCE the parents to place their kids in the school system or face criminal charges.

12. angela | Mar 12, 2008 | Reply

    Seems to me that in order for homeschooling to work that there would have to be two curriculums: #1 the curriculum that the state requires and #2 the curriculum that the homeschool teacher implements.

    If I were homeschooling my kids I would make sure I had a copy of the state curriculum and then my curriculum would go above and beyond IF my child could handle and input the above and beyond parts. At the very least I think homeschool teachers should do the state curriculum if they are not planning on going above and beyond.

    I also believe that the school districts that are failing do not have parental support of their programs. For example, if I put my child in the public school system and they are failing then it would be my job as their parent to find out why they are failing and what it is that I can do to help. Pulling your child out of public school isn’t always the answer for those that are choosing not to homeschool.

    It takes a team of adults including the parents to do whatever it takes to make learning possible for their children. (Of course everybody has their own scenario and I’m sure we wouldn’t have enough hours to beat each point into the ground).

    Unfortunately there are some parents out there that are homeschooling not because they want what’s best for their kids but because they are lazy and don’t want to do whatever it takes to help their kids. So instead of child protective services breathing down their necks they can homeschool their kids and just fill in their grade books as they see fit.

    Those that are genuinely doing right by their kids to do the best job that they can and to go above and beyond (like you have) don’t have to worry about these tests because their kids are outscoring the public school kids. I think this is great and maybe that is something our government can learn from.

    Because of a few unfortunate scenarios we have to make sure that all kids are protected. (Yes, a few bad apples can sometimes spoil the whole barrel.) But the way I see it, when you do right by your kids and right by God’s way nothing and nobody can bring you down. If everybody just does what they are suppose to and God is blessing the situation.. you can’t go wrong.

13. Tracy | Mar 12, 2008 | Reply

    “Pulling your child out of public school isn’t always the answer for those that are choosing not to homeschool. It takes a team of adults including the parents to do whatever it takes to make learning possible for their children. ”

    I agree completely.
    Naturally, parents should be as involved as possbile in the their child’s education– getting involved with the school, attending district board meetings, really paying attention to the curriculum, knowing who the administration is, voting during local elections that affect the district and school board openings, etc, etc.
    But you’d be surprised how powerless parents can be sometimes, in district decisions. The NEA has so much power and they pressure districts to conform to what they want. Money talks.

    “Unfortunately there are some parents out there that are homeschooling not because they want what’s best for their kids but because they are lazy and don’t want to do whatever it takes to help their kids.So instead of child protective services breathing down their necks they can homeschool their kids and just fill in their grade books as they see fit.”

    This is the only thing that I completely disagree with. And if you think about it, it doesn’t make sense. Homeschooling takes ALOT of work. ALOT of lesson planning, research, etc. And if you have kids of different ages and on different levels, then you have to adapt everything to EACH of those different levels. It’s much more difficult and takes more work than planning for 20 students in the same class who are GENERALLY on the same level.
    No parent would EVER homeschool because they were lazy and didn’t want to put any effort into helping their kids do well. Think about it. Someone who was lazy would just let their kids get on a bus and not have to do ANYTHING to take care of their kids for 7 hours every day. It’s like free childcare (okay– they pay through taxes) but they don’t HAVE to do anything to help their kids. Most of them don’t even have to take their kids to school since most kids are taken by bus. They can be completely uninvolved. The district can’t MAKE the parents help with homework, chaperone field trips, attend PTA meetings, be on the PTA board, etc. Protective services do NOT get involved just because a kid is horribly failing in public school and has lazy parents who aren’t involved in their education.
    So for lazy parents, public school is a dream.
    And I hope that’s not misinterpreted– I do NOT mean that kids who go to public school have lazy parents who send them to school becaues they are lazy and just to get the kids out of their hair. (Remember, MY kids go to public school)
    But for parents who ARE “lazy and don’t want to do whatever it takes to help their kids” public school is EASIER than homeschool. They just let their kids fail and don’t get involved. Do you see what I mean? For someone who IS a lazy, uninvolved parent, homeschool would be a nightmare and public school would be a dream.
    EVEN IF a lazy, uninvolved parent WAS “supposedly” homeschooling but wasn’t actually DOING any school and was just filling in grade books with made up stuff, they’d have kids running around all day, right?
    So a lazy, univolved parent would rather have their kids GONE all day at school, then have them home all day.
    Granted, there ARE situations where abusive parents keep their kids out of school on purpose so that they can continue in their abuse and not get caught when a teacher notices bruises. But those cases are extremely rare.
    And really, if you think of the millions and millions of kids in public school versus the number of kids who are homeschooled– and THEN consider the number of kids who are abused– what are the chances that those kids belong to the relatively FEW who are homeschooled?? Chances are, they go to public school, right?
    Honestly, I’m not sure what the answer is.
    I DO understand the concern– what about the kids who are being homeschooled who AREN’T getting a ‘proper’ education? Because of course, they DO exist. Anyone who says otherwise is just being defensive and is in denial. On the other hand, there are FAR MORE kids in public schools who aren’t getting a good education than there are homeschooled kids who aren’t getting one. So why is there so much concern for the homeschooled kids, when in almost every case and study they are OUTPERFORMING the public schooled kids?
    I really think when it comes down to it– it’s the money. School districts lose THOUSANDS of dollars per year, per KID who is homeschooled. I know in our district, the elementary schools get between $8,000 and $9,000 a YEAR, PER KID. So if even a school only loses 10 kids to homeschool– that’s almost $100,000 dollars they DON’T GET.
    That’s a lot of motivation to try and get homeschooling parents to let the district test their kids. And if they find anything “lacking”, they threaten charges, threaten a visit from family services, etc and WHAM, they get another $9,000 a year. Meanwhile, half the kids in their own district schools are “lacking”.
    This is one of those issues where I see the pro’s and con’s on both sides of the issue.
    But when it comes down to it– I just can’t help but find myself on the side of parental rights.

14. Husker Mike | Mar 13, 2008 | Reply

    Parking and traffic have been huge problems at the College World Series for years. People spend $15 or more to park in people’s yards since there is no parking available. Moving the series downtown opens up the possibility of using the nearly 5,000 spaces at the Qwest Center for parking. No doubt in my mind that parking and traffic will be significantly improved by moving the games downtown.

15. Danyiell | Mar 15, 2008 | Reply

    I apologize but I cannot believe that you just said that. As Angela has pointed out several times, homeschoolers are in fact testing out higher than public schoolers. Not only that but professionals usually screw up our children a lot worse than regular every day people. Do you know that in the UK kids are going to college when they are 16? Do you know that we are not as advanced as we seem to think we are. Japan and China are further than we are and we just call them gifted.

    The professionals in our schools are ruining the natural wonder and love of learning. We, who are teaching are giving those children something a professional can never give and thats love and enjoyment. We can adapt their learning to real life instead of having our children bored out of their minds.

    Also, hiring a teacher would sort of short circuit the whole point of homeschooling.

    I have to admit that your post offended me very much and would like to share some thoughts with you; maybe you should research homeschoolers and their testing scores. Maybe you should check out homeschoolers who got into Harvard or Princeton. Maybe you shouldn’t be so quick to judge and maybe the reason everyone is so messed up is because they depend upon professionals and other people to take care of what should be our own job.

16. Danyiell | Mar 15, 2008 | Reply

    Angela, you are obviously right Tracy did a wonderful job homeschooling her children, but why on earth would it be an excuse for other homeschool parents to want to avoid their children taking government mandated tests?

    Its not a contest and Tracy is right, when the government gets involved all they do is take, take, take.

    My sister and I homeschool 6 children. 3 4th graders, 1 3rd grader, 1 2nd grader and 1 Kindergardner.

    I have an Associates in IT, and she has an Associates in Web Design (not that either of these particular degrees help us teach anything). I am about 12 months from my Bachelors in Software Engineering and loving every minute. My point is this, the people who are homeschooling, whether degreed or not, are doing a great job. The governments tests don’t test everything we are teaching.

    For instance, my 4th graders just did a 30 slide PowerPoint which encompassed their math skills, spelling, language, art, grammar, social studies, and more. The one thing their PowerPoint included that they aren’t going to be tested on is Jesus Christ. I obviously teach them both sides, but I lean toward Christianity and thats the way it is.
    Many parents are the same way.

    I know that many people don’t believe in Jesus, or God anymore, but many homeschool parents do and that is a huge incentive. In this case, I teach Creation instead of “500 billion years ago” and “there was a big bang.” Science is one of the mandated tests that the states are trying to require. So what they are really trying to do is make sure I teach my children evolution, which I refuse to do the way they want me to.

    Our kids all do fun but stimulating work. We have the standard work books, but we are always doing projects, and throwing in our own lessons. We took about eight weeks at the beginning of this year to teach safety and health to our children due to the rapidly growing rate of childern crimes and suffering. We did it in a way that was appropriate for their age and they very much enjoyed it. My 4th graders are learning how to create small software programs and many people would say that that wasn’t the level of learning they should be at, but it teaches them math in algorithms, problem solving, creativity, design, spelling, grammar, and a ton more and best of all they enjoy what they are doing. These kids get upset when we don’t have school. I love that about our program.

    In my state we are already required to do standardized tests every year, and we do make sure that we follow the laws, but I don’t believe that the government should have the right to require it.

    Homeschooling offers the parent a way to teach the child at their own level. For instance, say my son is in 2nd grade but has trouble reading. In fact, say his reading is at a 1st grade level. I, as a homeschool parent, have the freedom to allow him to work at his own level in each course. These tests take away that freedom.

    Just for information sake, I would like to ask you a question. If our children, as you say, should have to go back to school because they fail a standardized test, what should happen to the students in the school that fail? Does it mean that the teachers in the public schools aren’t doing their jobs if their students fail? Somehow I don’t think they are going to send the teacher packing if she has some students fail. So what kind of a standard are we, as homeschoolers, being held up to?

17. angela | Mar 18, 2008 | Reply

    Danyiell — there shouldn’t be a problem having your children pass a government mandated test. After all, you are teaching your children better than any teacher in the public school system. The government has a right to make sure that the children living in the USA are being taught and in school. Since your children are going to out-score public school kids then there is no problem for you. The government mandated test can be taken when you feel that your child is ready to take it and pass with flying colors. All you have to do is find out what is going to be on the test, and make sure that they are well versed in those testing areas. In the meantime you are teaching your children A LOT more than what a government mandated test requires so what is the big deal? Are you upset because you don’t like that the government wants to make sure that you are doing right by your children? You’re already doing right by them so why not show the government just how well they are doing in their home school environment? Are you saying that the government isn’t allowed to try and do right by the kids? Seems to me that the government is damned if they do and damned if they don’t when it comes to certain issues.

    As for testing in the public school system.. there are tests that the kids do have to pass now in order to step into the next grade. At least that is how it was explained to me by my best friend who lived in Texas and is now living in Florida.

    For me, I see nothing wrong with mandated tests required by our government. I suspect there are a lot of homeschooling teachers that don’t mind the government mandated tests either.

18. Danyiell | Mar 19, 2008 | Reply

    Angela, it is obvious that we are not going to agree and that is fine. I appreciate the conversation. You may be right about many homeschoolers not minding, but there are a great many who do mind. HSLDA the homeschool legal defense group that we, as homeschoolers, use so very much, has some information regarding this subject. You may want to check it out or you may not. I don’t know, but I appreciate you giving us a place to air our grievances.

    Thanks again Angela!

19. angela | Mar 20, 2008 | Reply

    Hey no problem Danyiell. We don’t always have to agree. Our differences are what make the world go round and round, right?

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